© The contents of this finding aid are the copyright of the University of Chicago Library
© 2007 University of Chicago Library
Files in Series XII are restricted for 80 years from the date of creation.
When quoting material from this collection, the preferred citation is: Burgess, Ernest Watson. Papers. Addenda, [Box #, Folder #], Special Collections Research Center, University of Chicago Library
Ernest Watson Burgess was born on May 16, 1886 in Tilbury, Ontario, Canada to Edmund J. Burgess and Mary Ann Jane Wilson Burgess. His father was a minister in the Congregational Church. Burgess attended Kingfisher College in Oklahoma and received his B.A. in 1908. The following year Burgess entered the University of Chicago as a graduate student in the Department of Sociology. He received his Ph.D. in 1913. After several years of teaching in several Midwestern schools and collaborating in numerous social surveys, Burgess returned to Chicago with an appointment as Assistant Professor in Sociology in 1916.
He has been called the first "young sociologist," since all the other professors had entered the field from other professional areas. His career spanned five decades from 1916-1957, when his emeritus appointment ended. Burgess remained active a number of years beyond this retirement, co-authoring a text on Urban Sociology with Donald Bogue as late as 1963. In 1927 he achieved the status of full professor, and in 1946 he became chairman of the department. Although he retired as professor in 1951 at the mandatory retirement age, he remained active and salaried as Chairman until 1952. It was during this same period that he founded the Family Study Center, which later became the Family and Community Study Center. Burgess was active in many professional organizations. The leading sociological organizations to which he was elected President include the American Sociological Society (1934), the Sociological Research Association (1942), and the Social Science Research Council (1945-1946). He took over the directorship of the Behavior Research Fund in Chicago from Herman Adler, from 1931 to 1934. In 1942 he became President of the National Conference on Family Relations, an organization that he had helped found in 1938 after his involvement with the White House Conference on Child Health and Protection. His editing roles were extensive. He was managing editor of the American Sociological Society from 1921-1930, and editor of the American Journal of Sociology from 1936-1940. As Director of the Behavior Research Fund, he had the opportunity to edit a number of monographs from various areas of the social sciences, many of which represented pioneering efforts in their respective fields.
His involvement in a number of other distinctive organizations ranged from sponsorship to chairmanship. Among these were the American Law Institute, Vincent Astor Foundation, Chicago Census Advisory Committee, Chicago Urban League, Chicago Area Project, Chicago Crime Commission, Committee of Fifteen, Douglas Smith Fund, Illinois Citizens Committee on Parole, Illinois Academy of Criminology, National Recreation Commission, International Congress of Criminology, and The City Club. Ernest Watson Burgess died on
December 27, 1966. He was 80 years old.
The Ernest W. Burgess Addenda have been arranged into twelve series: Series I, Marriage Study Data; Series II, National Opinion Research Center; Series III, Committee on Communication; Series IV, Audiovisual; Series V, Magazine Advertising Bureau Study; Series VI, General Studies and Surveys; Series VII, Field Notes; Series VIII, Institutions; Series IX, Course Materials and Student Papers; Series X, Manuscripts by Others; Series XI, Oversize Maps and Data; and Series XII, Restricted.
Series IV: Audiovisual contains three subseries: 1. Microfilm, 2. Audio, 3. Burgess Reprints. Series VI: General Studies and Surveys contains five subseries: 1. Aging and Retirement Projects, 2. Marriage and Family Studies, 3. Personality Studies, 4. Urban Studies, and 5. General Sociological Studies. Series VII: Field Notes contains 2 subseries: 1. Paul Oien, and 2. Others. Series VIII: Institutions contains seven subseries: 1. Industrial Relations Center, 2. Chicago Area Project, 3. University of Chicago Department of Sociology, 4. Behavior Research Fund/Institute for Juvenile Research, 5. Chicago Crime Commission, 6. American Journal of Sociology, 7. Common Ground. Series IX: Course Materials and Student Papers contains four subseries: 1. Student Papers, Alphabetized, 2. Student Papers, by Course Number, 3. Student Papers, by Topic, and 4. Course Materials.
A substantial amount of the material extant in the present collection pertains to the research and work of Elihu Katz, Burgess's colleague in the Department of Sociology during the latter days of Burgess's career. Katz joined the faculty in 1954, two years after Burgess's formal retirement and remained a member until 1969, three years after Burgess's death. Series II, III, V, and XII seem to derive from Katz's own work and its original connection with Burgess is unclear, as is the process by which it came to be included in the present collection. Series X also contains materials that could plausibly have come from Katz's files.
For ease of reference, citations of the original Burgess collection (the Ernest Watson Burgess Papers) will be abbreviated as Burgess I. The present collection, the Ernest Watson Burgess Papers, Addenda, will be referred to as Burgess II.
The following related resources are located in the Department of Special Collections:
Material in this series comprises the raw data from three survey research projects on marriage and marital happiness with which Burgess was involved. The first, undertaken in collaboration with Leonard Cottrell, ran from 1931 until 1939. It culminated in the publication of Predicting Success or Failure in Marriage (1939). The second, in collaboration with Paul Wallin, ran from 1937 until 1944. Its results were published in Engagement and Marriage (1953). The third, entitled the Rockefeller Foundation Middle Years of Marriage Study was undertaken between 1955 and 1962. It involved a restudy by Burgess of the cases originally examined by Burgess and Wallin with an eye to extending the scope of that research into courtship and early marriage. In the 3rd ed. of The Family: From Institution to Companionship (1963), Burgess makes reference to an unpublished manuscript entitled, "The Study of Marriage in the Middle Years". It is unclear to the present researcher whether this essay did find published form. A check of Burgess's bibliography suggests not.
Each of these research projects involved a large amount of questionnaire and survey data. Over time and with developments in technology, Burgess increasingly had recourse to computer tabulation of incoming survey data. The present series comprises the process materials and the raw data from each of these survey research projects as well as supplementary or contextual information. Additionally, some administrative and research material relating to the Community and Family Study Center can be found in this series. It fills a lacuna found in Burgess I, Series 3.4. This latter material is also topically continuous with the material found in Burgess II, Series 6.2, "Marriage and Family Studies."
This series is composed primarily of the raw questionnaires used in two research projects sponsored by the National Opinion Research Center in 1959. The first, here titled "Problems of Living in the Metropolis", studied the adjustment of migrant populations to the experience of Chicago urban life. Its official NORC title was, "The Migrant in the Metropolis" and its chief researchers included Donald J. Bogue, Everett C. Hughes, Elihu Katz, and Peter M. Blau. Information about funding and organization of this study may be found in BOX 159, Folder 1.
The second project, entitled "Reaction to an Unscheduled Air-Raid Siren" was conducted by Elihu Katz with K. Kessin, J. McCoy, L. Pinto, and R. Strieby. No organizational or administrative information is extant in the present collection; its findings appear to have been published as: Katz, E., et al., "Public Reaction to the Unscheduled Sounding of Air-Raid Sirens in a Metropolis: A First Glance at the Data," in Baker and Rohrer, eds., Symposium on Human Problems in the Utilization of Fallout Shelters, Washington, DC: Disaster Research Group, National Academy of Sciences-National Research Council, 1960.
This series contains organizational materials, administrative records, course materials, correspondence, and publications relating to the work of the University of Chicago's Committee on Communication. The Committee was disbanded in 1959 and its faculty and students merged with those of the Sociology department. This series contains a large amount of correspondence with other Communications programs at major universities.
This series contains a variety of microfilm, reel-to-reel tape, and 78 records. The provenance and subject of the audio material is unclear. The microfilm relates, in part to the Engagement study undertaken by Burgess and Wallin and so supplements the material found in Series I. Another microfilm reel contains letters relating to the charges against Burgess of disloyalty to the United States in the late 1940s and early 1950s. The letters of support were written to the Seditious Activities Investigating Committee in Springfield, Illinois and dated 1949.
Material in this series pertains to a telephone survey research project undertaken in 1960 by Peter H. Rossi and Elihu Katz on behalf of the Magazine Advertising Bureau. The series contains a manuscript copy of the final report, process notes, correspondence, as well as a large number of telephone questionnaires. These latter are entitled "What Do You Think?" and were conducted under the aegis of the "National Consumer Panel". The overall project was designed to correlate the attitudes of husbands and wives to magazine advertisements as well as to gauge the influence of each upon the other in making purchasing decisions based on advertisement.
The material in this series is organized topically and covers most of Burgess's major research interests. In cases where a reasonable amount of administrative or institutional records was extant in the collection, topical material with a clear connection to that institution was removed from the present series and put in Series VIII: Institutions. Likewise, in some instances where raw data grouped with the material in this series could be linked clearly with a substantial amount of raw data elsewhere in the collection, the material originally here was relocated to Series VII: Field Notes. In general, then, the present series contains more polished work such as manuscripts, lectures, offprints and the like. Those researching a specific topic are encouraged to consult the administrative records of related institutions and organizations contained in this collection, as well as relevant series of raw data. Cross-referential notes to this effect will be provided wherever possible. General Studies and Surveys is divided topically into five subseries.
Subseries 1: Aging and Retirement Projects
Toward the end of his career, Burgess became more interested in the subject of the sociology of aging and retirement age populations. In conjunction with the Industrial Relations Center, Burgess engaged in research relating to the social lives and adjustment of retirees. As such, his research contributed to the developing, cross-disciplinary study of Gerontology. The records of the Industrial Relations Center (Series VIII.1) contain interesting correspondence of this sort with the nascent Gerontology program at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. This collaboration culminated in a series of retirement planning seminars and in a conference on retirement villages held in 1960. This conference was sponsored in conjunction with Moosehaven, a retirement community founded in 1922 for members of that fraternal organization. Burgess participated as well in a White House conference on Aging in 1961.
In line with Burgess's general research orientation, his study of retirement populations focused on social welfare and the demographic shifts evident in an American population whose family structures were breaking down under the impact of urbanization and industrialization. His work with the IRC as well as with the Federal Government and the Fraternal Order of the Moose can be understood, as an attempt to construct alternative social structures to meet the social welfare needs of this population.
The material in the present collection supplements that found in Burgess I, Series III.9. The data there pertain to the Social Science Research Council and the Subcommittee on Social Adjustment in Later Maturity. Given that the majority of the data in the present collection postdates that found in Burgess I, it is reasonable to assume that the work here represents a development from that earlier work and thus supplements it temporally rather than in a directly topical fashion.
This subseries should be consulted in conjunction with Series VIII.1. The latter contains much of the practical, administrative material was produced in conjunction with the research to which this subseries was connected.
Subseries 2: Marriage and Family Studies
This subseries is topically continuous with Series I: Marriage Studies Data. In general, the earlier series contained the process data and notes pertaining to specific research projects in which Burgess collaborated as well as the administrative records of the Community Family Study Center. The present subseries contains notes, data and information relating to Burgess's broader interest in the family unit, courtship, marriage, children and delinquency as loci of sociological interest. Some of the information contained in this subseries is directly contiguous with Burgess's abiding interest in deriving accurate prediction criteria by which marital success may be anticipated. It supplements the data found in Burgess I, Series III.4, Marriage, and Series III.5, Child and Family.
Attested in the present subseries are data pertaining to Burgess's affiliation with the Mooseheart Laboratory for Child Research in the early 1930s. Additionally, there are several items reflecting Burgess's involvement in the planning and execution of the White House Conference on Child Health and Protection in 1930. Material relating to Burgess's ongoing interest in Juvenile Delinquency can be found in the present subseries as well as in Series VI.4, Urban Studies.
Subseries 3: Personality Studies
Burgess's interest in personality as an entity worthy of sociological research can be dated from early in his career, when he edited Personality and the Social Group (1929). The material in the present collection, however, suggests that his interest in personality developed over time as a subset of his other research interests. Personality evaluations constituted an essential part of his research process, as the variety of personality inventories and diagnostic tools evident in Burgess II can readily attest. It is likely that the derivation of quantifiable, standardized data from the analysis of the human personality should be seen as a component element of Burgess's abiding concern for predictability in sociological research, a research interest developing out of his work on parole prediction and the prediction of marital success.
This subseries contains primarily articles and essays on the subject of personality analysis, as well as examples of diagnostic tools. Additionally, there is an extended series of personality schedules employing the Humm-Wadsworth temperament scale and dated between 1940-1945. The actual subject of this research interest is unknown. Also extant in this subseries is an extended report to the Social Science Research Council advocating the organization of an academic program on Personality and Culture. No date is given for this information. Awareness, however, that Burgess's colleague Robert J. Havighurst was involved in the development of the Committee on Human Development out of the Committee on Child Development in the late 1930s and early 1940s seems worthy of note in this regard. Burgess's own research into various methodological approaches to human personality culminated in a symposium on the Methods of Personality Study in 1946.
Given the pervasive influence of personality study on Burgess's research, it is difficult to isolate specific areas of cross-referential interest. There exists in Burgess I, no corresponding subject heading. Some information may be gleaned, however, from Series V.8. General Sociology and Miscellaneous Topics.
Subseries 4: Urban Studies
This subseries is a close complement to Series VII, Field Notes. The latter comprises raw data, mostly in manuscript form, pertaining to sociological studies of urban life in Chicago. The present subseries is reserved, then, for more polished, analytical and research work on Urban Studies: essays, memoirs, correspondence and the like. Maps, tables and information relating to the study of the urban environment may also be found in Series XI, Oversize Maps and Data. There are some institutional records located in the present subseries, including, for example, some records of the Chicago Recreation Commission, of the Citizens' Association of Chicago, the Illinois Sex Offender Commission, etc. Records for the Chicago Area Project and the Chicago Crime Commission were so extensive as to demand their segregation and inclusion in Series VIII, Institutions (subseries 2 and 5, respectively). Corresponding information in Burgess I may be found in Series III.1, Parole Research; Series III.2, Crime in Chicago: Recreation and Delinquency; Series III.3, Chicago Census and Community Data; Series V.1, Parole and Crime; Series V.2, Crime and Delinquency; and Series V.5, Urban Sociology.
An excellent background to the study of the city at the University of Chicago and in the department of Sociology may be found at: http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/spcl/excat/cityint.html. Burgess's own research interest in the city dates from his collaboration with Robert Park on The City (1925). Much of the work that he assigned his students involved exploration of the urban social environment and reportage of its phenomena and practices. Evident in the present subseries is an ongoing concern to integrate the analytical work of the sociologist of the city with the social reformer's concern to address the problems of crime, vice and poverty. Burgess maintained an active interest in a variety of social welfare and advocacy organizations, continued to research and write on Urban Sociology, and trained many students in the analytical study of the urban environment.
Subseries 5: General Sociological Studies
This subseries functions as a catch-all in which to group the large amount of material without clear provenance found in Burgess II. Also collected here is some research work on ministers and theological education that was deemed too scarce to justify a separate collection. The same applies for the isolated institutional records and information that found no corresponding files extant in the present collection. The bulk of this subseries, however, is made up of loose newspaper clippings, advertisements, and notes.
This series contains information, largely in manuscript form, collected about city life in Chicago during the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s. Apparently unpublished, it stands as a methodological and topical complement to the work of Burgess's best students: Nels Anderson, (The Hobo: The Sociology of the Homeless Man ), Clifford Shaw (The Jack Roller: A Delinquent Boy's Own Story ), John Landesco (Organized Crime in Chicago ), Paul Cressey (The Taxi-Dance Hall ), et al. Burgess seems to have encouraged his students to submit papers on topics related to social life and social organization in the city-student work that informed his own writings on urban sociology. The department of Sociology apparently received a WPA grant during the 1930s that supplemented this mode of data collection. Both of these means served Burgess's general interest in integrating qualitative information with quantitative and statistical data. Despite this origin, the value of the information contained in this series exceeds the sociological. The accounts preserved in the present series are direct, first-person narratives of life on the South side of Chicago during the depression. They focus primarily on vice among marginal populations; vivid descriptions of crime, sexual promiscuity, gambling, prostitution, drinking, mental illness, and vagrancy abound. Additionally, there are interesting collections of the opinions of South Side residents on race relations, as well as on the rise of Adolph Hitler and the Nazis in Germany and American involvement in pre-War European political affairs. Folder headings are, for the most part, as they appeared in Burgess's original files.
Subseries 1: Paul Oien
The manuscript notes in this subseries were gathered exclusively by Paul Oien. The University's records indicate that Oien did complete some coursework in the department of Sociology between 1934 and 1939, he is listed in the undergraduate student directory of 1937-38 as a student-at-large, and he has a single paper extant in Series IX.3, Student Papers, By Topic (BOX 284, Folder 11). Despite these academic associations, the correspondence file of this subseries suggests that the primary connection between Oien and Burgess was a W.P.A. grant intended to facilitate his data collection among the residents of the South Side of Chicago. Toward the end of the 1930s, the correspondence makes occasional reference to the impending loss of this grant funding and also alludes to work being done for other Sociology faculty at the University. The letterhead Oien uses most consistently is that of the National Conference on Family Relations, an organization for which Burgess served as the secretary-treasurer. Whether or not Oien's grant came under the aegis of this organization or some other is difficult to determine.
These manuscript notes are in a state of considerable fragility given the poor quality of the paper used. Their organization is roughly alphabetical by file heading. Most files are dated and the subject matter within them usually relates in a general sense to the material inside. There are occasional photographs whose connection with the manuscript pages is not at all clear. The manuscripts themselves consist of recollected dialogues, accounts of dreams, narratives of event, and lists.
The material in the present subseries supplements Series VI.4, Urban Studies. Burgess I also contains a few pieces written by Oien. See Series I, General Files (BOX 16, Folder 11), and Series III.2, Crime in Chicago: Recreation and Delinquency (BOX 37, Folder 6).
Subseries 2: Notes by Others
This subseries contains a variety of raw data pertaining to Urban Studies and the sociology of the city. Much of it is in the form of note cards that seem to have been used in a comprehensive social survey. The data they contain refer to social organizations, businesses, and institutions throughout the city. They were originally found accompanied by a number of computer punch-cards, suggesting that this raw data was, or was meant to be tabulated and analyzed statistically.
A series of manuscript reports by "McMurray" gives an accounting of the activities and personalities of a street gang called "The Chicago Herrings". This material a direct continuation of "McMurray" data found in Burgess I, Series IV.1, Individual Students and Collaborators (Box 134, Folder 3). In one instance where an incomplete document in Burgess I was obviously completed by a partial document from Burgess II, the two were rejoined in their original location. The rest of the material was left distributed between the two collections. Box 215, Folders 5 and 6 contain material supplementary to the oversize maps contained in Series XI. Several folded maps originally found here have been relocated to Box 302, Folder 8.
The remainder of the data found in this subseries is field notes, manuscripts, photographic slides, maps, charts and publications. They are grouped together because they all refer to urban life and pertain to Burgess's work on Sociology of the City. As such, they also complement the material found in Series VI.4, Urban Studies. Based on the formal similarity to work done by Burgess's students, as well as the attested links between student coursework and sociological research, there may also be substantive connections with Series IX: Course Materials and Student Papers.
This series consists of administrative and research materials with a clear provenance in one of the many organizations with which Burgess was affiliated. The distinction between this material and that contained in the various topical sections is largely artificial, given that the original, accessioned state of Burgess II made no such distinction. For the sake of clarity, however, this division has been introduced into the present collection. In instances where administrative materials were located in a topical series, but the amount present was insufficient to justify segregation and formation of a separate subseries, the material was left in its original location. For this reason, researchers are encouraged to look here and in the appropriate subseries of Series VI, General Studies of Surveys to find pertinent information.
Subseries 1: Industrial Relations Center
This subseries contains general institutional records and correspondence as well as information pertaining to a variety of research and outreach projects. The primary avenue of collaboration between Burgess and the IRC seems to have been his later research into the sociology of aging and retirement age populations. The IRC was instrumental in the organization of a series of Retirement Planning Seminars arranged in conjunction with various businesses and corporations. In this regard, they also produced a publication entitled, "Making the Most of Maturity". Burgess was central to the organization and planning of these efforts and the material in the present subseries reflects this involvement. Additionally, some IRC material pertaining to the organization of seminars on leadership is also attested in this subseries.
Subseries 2: Chicago Area Project
The material preserved in this subseries reflects the activities of an organization intended to combat juvenile delinquency founded by Burgess's student Clifford R. Shaw in 1932. Burgess maintained an affiliation with the CAP and served on its Board of Directors. Shaw's work proceeded from his experience as a juvenile probation officer and his affiliation with the Institute for Juvenile Research. The IJR continued to provide research guidance to the community activities of the CAP for a protracted period of time. The CAP appears to have integrated sociological research with community input and training, thus providing an institution for the application of sociological research in a manner analogous to many other institutions with which Burgess was involved. The present collection contains a statement of purpose, administrative materials as well as course materials developed from the CAP's activities.
Subseries 3: Dept of Sociology
This subseries consists primarily of correspondence and meeting minutes. Some budget information and grant application material is attested as well. This subseries serves as a repository for any administrative or non-pedagogical material related to Burgess's activities in the University of Chicago Department of Sociology.
Subseries 4: Behavior Research Fund/Institute for Juvenile Research
This subseries preserves the administrative materials of two, closely affiliated organizations. The Institute for Juvenile Research focused on research into causes of juvenile delinquency. Founded in 1909, it was administered by Cook County after 1914. The Behavior Research Fund was founded by Herman Adler out of his experience as head of the IJR. The BRF grouped a cross-disciplinary selection of scholars under the general rubric of the study of human behavior and a methodological interest in the issues of crime and criminality. The material in this subseries consist primarily of reports, correspondence, budgetary and fundraising matter.
Subseries 5: Chicago Crime Commission
This subseries contains of material related to the administration of the Chicago Crime Commission, an organization founded in 1919 as a watchdog anti-organized crime group. Burgess and other sociologists carried out a survey of its members at some point in the 1950s as part of an effort to redirect and streamline the efforts of the Commission. Much of the material in this subseries pertains to that effort. The rest consists of press releases and publications as well as meeting minutes of the group.
Subseries 6: American Journal of Sociology
Burgess served on the editorial board of the American Journal of Sociology from 1933-1952 but continued to have an influence over its activities long into his retirement. He is listed on masthead as editor from 1936-1940. The material in this subseries consists of administrative and promotional materials for the AJS between 1943-1952.
Subseries 7: Common Ground
Burgess served as a board member on this social welfare organization affiliated with the Chicago Congregational Union. Active during the depression, Common Ground seems to have coordinated recreational and vocational programs for the unemployed. This subseries contains some correspondence, a mission statement and some published matter.
This series consists of a large number of essays written by Burgess's students in his academic courses. It contains essays written during the period of 1917-1959, with the majority found in the 1920s and 1940s. The series has been organized by alphabetically by single student author wherever possible, grouping multiple papers under a single author heading. Given the presence of a substantial amount of material for which a single author was difficult to determine, other series organized by course number and topic were developed.
The research topics covered in these papers trace Burgess's own academic interests very closely, focusing especially on the sociology of the family and urban studies. Burgess was fond of asking his students to write autobiographical accounts of their own lives and to employ sociological methodology to draw analytical conclusions from their direct experience. Evidence from notes found in these files suggests that Burgess was wont to include useful accounts and data provided by his students in his own published work.
Following the series of student papers, a grouping of Burgess's own course and course preparation materials has been appended. This has also been arranged according to course number.
This series overlaps topically and generically with the matter found in Series VII, Field Notes. There is also some topical overlap with Series XII, Restricted.
This series comprises an alphabetized list of articles and offprints by other scholars. In this list, MA and PhD thesis proposals are also evident. Material in this series ranges in date between 1912 and 1963, with a concentration in the 1940s and 1950s. All of Burgess's major research interests are covered in this collection, supplementing the material found throughout Burgess I and II. Some number of essays in this series are concerned with research topics far outside Burgess's own, specifically, works on the sociology of Jewish and Israeli culture. This creates the impression that these are either general departmental files, or that Burgess's own files were supplemented with those of someone in the department working on this topic such as Elihu Katz.
This series contains a collection of oversize maps, statistical data and diagrams. It is intimately related to Burgess's urban survey work and to the material found in Series VI.4, Urban Studies and Series VII, Field Notes. The documents in this series cover primarily Chicago, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, with a few items relating to New Orleans and San Francisco. 2 folders of material relating to these oversize items may be found in Series VII.2, Notes by Others (BOX 215, folders 5 and 6). Several oversize maps folded and originally included in these relocated folders have been replaced here in BOX 302, folder 8.
This series is composed of student records, recommendations and grades. Notes found in the folders suggest that the provenance of these materials may have originally been the academic files of the Committee on Communication, the students of which were transferred to the Dept. of Sociology upon the dissolution of that Committee in 1959. According to this note, Elihu Katz became the faculty advisor in Sociology for these students, lending further evidence to the supposition that Burgess's original files have been supplemented in some fashion with the files of at least Katz and perhaps others.